'This House believes that the Arab governments have failed the Palestinians'

'This House believes that = the Arab governments have failed the Palestinians'

Introdu= ction

Hussein= Ibish

Ahmed Maher<= b>

Ghada Karmi<= b>

Michael Tarazi

Audienc= e

Vote Re= sult

TIM SEBASTIAN

Ladies and gentlemen, a very good e= vening to you and welcome back to the Doha Debates sponsored by the Qatar Foundation. This is the start= of our second series here in the Gulf, and we're determined to keep up the pressure, pressure for tough open analysis of controversial issues, pressur= e on our speakers and on you, the audience, to come up with new arguments and new thinking. Tonight the motion = goes to the heart of some of the bitterest sentiments of the Arab world, 'This h= ouse believes that Arab governments have failed the Palestinians'. Well, whichever way you vote, we h= ope this will serve as a catalyst for some lively debate about one of the most divisive issues in the region, who helped the Palestinians, who stood in th= eir way, and did the Palestinians ever really help themselves. Let's see if we can sift some of t= he truth from the volumes of fiction. Four speakers tonight, all with instructions to be brief but persuas= ive. Speaking for the motion, Hussein I= bish, who's a Senior Fellow at the American Task Force on = Palestine, a frequent writer and broadc= aster on Middle Eastern affairs. He co-authored the book entitled The Palestinians Right of Return. Born in Beirut, he now holds both US and Lebane= se citizenship. Ghada Karmi is a Research Fellow at the Institute= of Arab and Islamic Studies at Exeter University in England. Based now in Ramallah, she is also= an Information Adviser to the Palestinian Authority. She has found time, in her busy li= fe, to qualify as a Doctor of Medicine, and contributes regularly to a number of journals and newspapers. Now against the motion, Ahmed Maher, a career diplomat who chose to retire afte= r a long and distinguished career but was made an offer he couldn't refuse and became Egypt's 71^st Foreign Minister, a post he held until he really did retire last year. Well, three years = ago during an interview on Iraq, I accused him of sitting on the fence.&nbs= p; He replied disarmingly, 'But we're all sitting on the fence.' Not tonight though, I'm sure. And Michael Tarazi who's a Palesti= nian lawyer, now advising the Palestinian Authority's Minister for Jerusalem Affairs. He's previously serv= ed with the PLO in the Negotiations Affairs Department. Hard to know whether that was more= or less challenging than his time practising securities law in New York. Suffice it to say that he's used t= o a variety of different pressures, a great qualification to sit here as the fo= urth member of our panel. (applaus= e) And now let me call on Hussein Ibi= sh to begin by speaking for the motion.

HUSSEIN IBISH

Thank you very much, Tim. I'd like to start by inviting all = of you in the audience to join me in a thought experiment. Right, let's look at the present situation of the Palestinians and let's say, for the sake of argument, that this does not constitute somehow failure, right. Let's not call it success, all rig= ht, let's call it something like neutral maybe, and then let's extrapolate in o= ur imaginations a downward spiral in the direction of failure. Now, can you imagine what failure = would then look like? Neither can I= . I mean, how much worse would thing= s have to get before we could say to ourselves, 'Arabs, your governments have fail= ed the Palestinians.' Of course = Arab governments have failed the Palestinians, of course they have. Across the Arab world, while the Palestinian issue has often been used cynically by governments as a rallying cry, a diversion and an excuse for internal repression, Palestinians themse= lves have all too often been feared, at times hated, and sometimes even persecut= ed by Arab regimes. The outrageo= us and shameful behaviour of the government of Lebanon, my home country, towards i= ts own Palestinian refugee population would probably be exhibit A, excluded as they are from so many professions, hemmed into some of the most wretched re= fugee camps in the entire world. Th= ere are many other key examples, of course, including the expulsion of Palestin= ians from Libya and Kuwait, one could go on and on. I dou= bt anyone in this audience is unaware of this sorry record. It's a sad but true commentary and= one that we need to face up to, that Palestinians living in my adopted country,= the United States, have more rights than they do in any Arab state. Worse still, Arab governments have consistently encouraged the Palestinian national movement to adopt a set of self-defeating strategies in the pursuit of national liberation. While almost all Arab states have developed pragmatic policies of their own towards Israel, they have promoted political stridency and militant rhetoric among Palestinians, encouraging t= hem to live in a fantasy world in which a simplistic formula of armed struggle, steadfastness, you have to love these buzz words, steadfastness, and worst = of all, the very worst buzz word of all, martyrdom, are framed as a serious response to the incredibly complex challenges facing Palestinian national liberation. Many Arab governm= ents have uncompromisingly championed the Palestinian cause with words, of cours= e, only with words, encourage Palestinians to confront the vastly more powerful Israelis alone and virtually unarmed, and then fetishised images of dead and dying Palestinians on satellite television, while fearing and mistreating Palestinians, live Palestinians, in their own states, and at the same time doing all sorts of business, whether openly or covertly, with Israel. In effect, many Arab governments h= ave been willing and committed to fight the Israelis till the last Palestinian. Three quick prov= isos on this. First, no doubt, Ara= bs generally as individuals and as societies have cared deeply about the Palestinians and have done much to help them. Second, most of the blame no doubt= for the terrible situation and suffering of the Palestinians belongs at the fee= t of their main persecutors, the State of Israel. Thirdly, the international communi= ty led by the United States= has failed the Palestinian people, as has the historically poor if not at t= imes wretched leadership of the Palestinian national movement. But this debate isn't about any of= those actors or any of those things. We are here to discuss the spectacular failure of the Arab governments towards= the Palestinians.

TIM SEB= ASTIAN

Hussein Ib= ish, thank you very much indeed. You talked about the Arab governments fighting to the last Palestinian. The Arab governments launched five wars against Israel …

HUSSEIN= IBISH

Yes.

TIM SEB= ASTIAN

… on= behalf of the Palestinians.

HUSSEIN= IBISH

In the dis= tant past.

TIM SEB= ASTIAN

Is that no= t good enough for you?

HUSSEIN= IBISH

In the dis= tant past.

TIM SEB= ASTIAN

They shed = a lot of blood, didn't they.

HUSSEIN= IBISH

Yes, certa= inly that's among the things that I meant when I said individual Palestinians, individual Arabs had suffered for the Palestinians. Many had fought, in the distant pa= st.

TIM SEB= ASTIAN

That's bec= ause their governments went to war with …

HUSSEIN= IBISH

That doesn= 't constitute success.

TIM SEB= ASTIAN

But you ca= n't criticise them for not trying.

HUSSEIN= IBISH

It depends= . I mean, I would argue that the intervention in 1948 was too little too late, and that in 1973, countries l= ike Egypt were fighting to recover their own territory, and they were satisfied they'd achieved success because they ended up on the other side of the Suez Canal, and when they couldn't achieve their own particular national aims, w= hich everyone should and could respect, which had to do with regaining their territorial integrity through war, they did it through negotiations, during which the Palestinian cause was put aside.

TIM SEB= ASTIAN

But had th= ey succeeded, the Palestinians would have been the main beneficiaries, wouldn't they?

HUSSEIN= IBISH

In 1948, y= es. I don't know about 1973 because it= was about regaining occupied national land of sovereign states. It's certainly possible. This is a counter-factual argument= . It doesn't go to demonstrate in an= y way that Arab states have succeeded in supporting the Palestinians.

TIM SEB= ASTIAN

It may not= have succeeded but they tried. The= issue is kept alive at every major forum.

HUSSEIN= IBISH

Well ̷= 0;

TIM SEB= ASTIAN

Can I just finish, can I just finis= h the question before you give me an answer.

HUSSEIN= IBISH

Yes, you c= an, of course. All right.

TIM SEB= ASTIAN

They try a= t every major forum to bring up the issue of the Palestinians, it's raised by the A= rab League, raised by Arab governments, it's not forgotten, it's continually us= ed as a lever and that tool isn't good enough for you.

HUSSEIN= IBISH

Right, bec= ause what I think is that it's being used rhetorically for often cynical political reasons, as I say, often domestic reasons, often regional reasons, but I th= ink that for the most part, certainly since 1973, Palestinians have been left to face the Israelis on their own and Arab state after Arab state has developed their own pragmatic policies towards the Israelis and I believe that, given= the rhetoric prevalent in the Arab world …

TIM SEB= ASTIAN

There are = only two peace treaties, there are only two peace treaties, aren't there?

HUSSEIN= IBISH

There is a= lot more to dealing with the Israelis than making a fully fledged peace treaty. There is a lot of stuff that I ref= erred to, sort of not necessarily covert but below the radar screens, there's a l= ot of dealing with Israel, which is perfect for Arab states who have to confront the reality that Israel is there and Israel is not going anywhere.= The problem is, in many cases they= have encouraged Palestinians to persist in behaving as if the Israelis somehow w= ere going to go away …

TIM SEB= ASTIAN

Which Pale= stinians, they're split, aren't they, which factions have they encouraged? Did they encourage Yasser Arafat?<= /span>

HUSSEIN= IBISH

I mean, th= at's another question.

TIM SEB= ASTIAN

No, he did= n't need encouragement, did he?

HUSSEIN= IBISH

Well, look= . There is no doubt, as I said, the Palestinian leadership has often been poor and I certainly wouldn't defend = the historical record of the Palestinian leadership, but there is no question i= n my mind that Arab states have encouraged a simplistic formula which was bound = to fail, and have not supported Palestinians in trying to develop a much more sophisticated nuance posée that might actually have led to national liberation.
TIM SEB= ASTIAN

All right,= Hussein Ibish, thank you very much indeed.

HUSSEIN= IBISH

Thank you,= Tim.

TIM SEB= ASTIAN

Ahmed Mahe= r, can I ask you to speak against the motion please.

AHMED M= AHER

Thank you,= Tim, for having tried to get us out of the world of fantasy, because what I heard is= a lot of fantasy, a lot of innuendos, and what one gets from this speech is t= hat the Palestinians are not players in this game, they are pawns of countries = that are using them, and they have no cause to defend for themselves. I believe this to be absolutely wrong. The question is, I thi= nk that you said that I= srael is still there. It is there a= nd it is still going to be there, but the failure is the failure of the world to support the Palestinian cause. What the Arab countries did was fight at the United Nations for the Palestinian cause, fight on the terrain for the Palestinian cause, fight diplomatically, fight through political action. I think the Arabs did a lot that they had to do, but the world failed the Ara= bs and failed the Palestinians. = If you speak about Egypt, and I think Camp David was mentioned, '73 was mentioned,= we fought in '73 to recuperate all Arab territories, starting by Egyptian territory, because it was believed, and I think it is true, that a stronger Egypt would be in a stronger position to help the Palestinians, because we believe, and the Arab countries believe that their national security is lin= ked to the Palestinian question. = We believe that without the solution of the Palestinian question on the basis = of justice, there will be no stability in the region, there will always be a situation very difficult for everybody, and that is why, in '73, I was ther= e at Camp David, when we were talking not only about the recuperation of the Egy= ptian territory, but also about the Palestinian problem, and we came out with two documents, one concerning Egypt and one concerning the negotiations for the Palestinian question. It is t= rue that this was not accepted at the time by the Palestinians but it did not prevent us getting into very thorough and difficult negotiations in order to get the Israelis to recognise the existence of the Palestinian problem, the existence of the Palestinian people,. And if there has been a recognition l= ater on of the PLO, or the Palestinian Authority by Israel, it is in fact due to efforts by Egypt, to the steps that Eg= ypt has taken. What we see now is= the situation where we have tried everything we could and I think what remains = to be seen is how the world reacts to the attitudes of the Israelis and support also the Palestinian people, which is a moral obligation as much as a polit= ical obligation.

TIM SEB= ASTIAN

Ahmed Mahe= r, thank you very much indeed. If, as = you say, you did all you could, why did Egypt pass a series over the years of restrictive laws against the Palestinians about their right to return to the country, travel documents which insisted that they get visas outside the country before they were allowed back in, restrictions on the students, the kind of education they could have and the jobs they could have. Why so many restrictions on the Palestinians if you were laying the role of friendly uncle?

AHMED M= AHER

Let me tel= l you that the number of Palestinians working in Egypt= and studying in Egypt, having studied in Eg= ypt, is enormous. There were some restrictions but one of the main reasons of these …

TIM SEB= ASTIAN

Why? There were a lot of restrictions.<= /span>

AHMED M= AHER

I'll tell = you why.

TIM SEB= ASTIAN

Not just s= ome but a lot.

AHMED M= AHER

This was a= position of all the Arab countries. Th= ey did not want the Palestinians to leave Palestine because this would in fact evacuate the whole problem. If you allowed the Palestinians to= go all over the world, this would mean that the Israelis would have achieved t= heir goal of putting an end to the existence of the Palestinian people on the Palestinian territories.

TIM SEB= ASTIAN

But once t= hey're there, is that a reason to mistreat them, or not to give them equal rights?=

AHMED M= AHER

There was = no mistreatment, there were some regulations, but I still tell you that the numbers of Palestinians who are working in Egypt today, who have been worki= ng in Egypt for the last years, 20, 30, 40&nb= sp; years, the number of students who came to study in Egypt and who are studying in Egypt is by the thousands.

TIM SEB= ASTIAN

Palestinia= n students have been banned from joining colleges of medicine, pharmacy, economics, political science and journalism in Egypt. Why?

AHMED M= AHER

I don't be= lieve this is true. I believe that the Palestinians have been allowed to study in Egypt. At one time they did not come, but= as of today, if you count the number of people who graduated from Egyptian universities, if you count the numbers of Palestinians who have been very successful businessmen and working in Egypt, you will find this to be quite= a lot.

TIM SEB= ASTIAN

But the wo= rk was restricted. Let me cite to you presidential decrees 47 and 48 in July 1978, which cancelled earlier decisi= ons which treated the Palestinians like Egyptians, from then on the Ministry of= Human Resources also prohibited the employment of foreigners including Palestinia= ns in trade, particularly imports and exports, except those who were married to Egyptians for more than five years. That's pretty restrictive.

AHMED M= AHER

Remember, = remember …

TIM SEB= ASTIAN

Presidenti= al decrees, 47 and 48.

AHMED M= AHER

In '78. That was the time when the re-affirmation of the existence of the Palestinian people, of the personali= ty of the Palestinian people was important.&n= bsp; Maybe some of these restrictions were not absolutely justified, but = the whole idea was to maintain the existence of the Palestinian people as a Palestinian people, not to let them disappear in the midst of other people.=

TIM SEB= ASTIAN

All right,= Ahmed Maher, thank you very much indeed. And now Ghada Karmi to speak for the motion.

GHADA K= ARMI

Thank you.= I speak with a heavy heart because= as an Arab, I should not attack fellow Arabs, but it is not the Arab people, who = have always supported the Palestinians, that I mean. It is their governments who so oft= en do not represent them. What I sa= y will earn me no favours with Arab governments, but I believe that if we are to progress, we Arabs must not be afraid to be self-critical and to face our faults honesty. Yes, the Arab governments have failed the Palestinians.&= nbsp; Now the other side argues, and I knew it would, that they'd helped t= hem a lot. We don't deny that, th= ey did help. They have given them fu= nding they have given them help, the sort of thing you've heard about, Jordan gave them citizenship and so on, but look closer. The Arab states never succeede= d in defeating Israel. In 1978, which His Excellency has referred to, Egypt, the only state which could have, left the battle front with the Camp David Treaty. Since then, the rest = have been trying to make peace with Israel, a state that occupies Arab land and kills Arabs. Today, they are falling over thems= elves to recognise Israel<= /st1:country-region>. Why? Because Israel vacated a few settleme= nts which were illegal anyway, and look what we're reduced to. Egypt, that great power, is now Is= rael's policeman on Gaza's border, and the rest watch helplessly while Israel kills and bombs the Palestinians, and steals their land, and Israel's best friend, America, lays waste to that great country, Iraq. I am not unsympathetic to the Arab governments' dilemma. They owe their support, and in many cases their very existence, to American favour.<= span style=3D'mso-spacerun:yes'> Am= erica is Israel's greatest a= lly, so if they fight Isr= ael, they risk losing American support and threaten their own survival. It is an unenviable position, but = no matter what the cause, for the Palestinians it comes down to the same thing: the Arab governments have failed them.&nbs= p; So I urge you tonight to vote with your consciences. You know that I'm saying what most= of you think but do not say. I u= rge you, vote on the side of truth and honesty, vote to support our motion.

TIM SEB= ASTIAN

Ghada Karm= i, thank you very much indeed. Since w= e are talking about truth and you want to be self-critical, perhaps one of the reasons that the Arab governments have not supported the Palestinians as mu= ch as you like is because perhaps the Palestinians have failed the Arab governments, or at least the Palestinian governments have failed the Arabs.=

GHADA K= ARMI

Look, we'r= e not talking about the Palestinian failure.&nbs= p; Of course there are Palestinian mistakes.

TIM SEB= ASTIAN

Mistakes?<= span style=3D'mso-spacerun:yes'> Spectacular corruption, nepotism, brutality on a grand scale?

GHADA K= ARMI

No, no, le= t's get this in perspective. It's not spectacular at all. If you wa= nt to actually …

TIM SEB= ASTIAN

Well, Edwa= rd Said referred to it as spectacular and he had some pretty intimate knowledge, di= dn't he?

GHADA K= ARMI

Edward Sai= d is great, I respect him but he wasn't right about everything.

TIM SEB= ASTIAN

What about= the former Palestinian Minister of Supplies.&n= bsp; He called it 'inconceivable moral degradation.' This is Ali Shahin, former Palesti= nian Minister of Supplies.

GHADA K= ARMI

Who is def= ending corruption? All I'm saying, d= on't call it spectacular. Please l= ook at the state of the Arab world.

TIM SEB= ASTIAN

Hundreds o= f millions of dollars is not spectacular? You wanted to be self-critical and open.

GHADA K= ARMI

OK. We are not discussing whether the Palestinians themselves could have done better. They could, but that's not our motion. The motion tonight is= , did the Arab governments fail them, and I've just shown that they did.
TIM SEB= ASTIAN

And I'm sa= ying that perhaps the Palestinians failed the Arab governments. Perhaps they didn't want to suppor= t a regime that was as corrupt and nepotistic as the one they had to deal with = over many years. That's what some = of them say.

GHADA K= ARMI

But the Palestinians, they didn't have a regime for decades, and they did not recei= ve the support they needed.

TIM SEB= ASTIAN

Yasser Ara= fat wasn't their leader, in control of their funds?

GHADA K= ARMI

Yasser Ara= fat indeed was their leader.

TIM SEB= ASTIAN

Exactly.

GHADA K= ARMI

He was the= ir leader but …

TIM SEB= ASTIAN

In control= of the purse strings or not?

GHADA K= ARMI

In control= of the purse strings but this is not about Palestinian corruption or not. This is about whether …

TIM SEB= ASTIAN

It's about= the attitude of the Arab governments to the Palestinians. You're saying they failed them. I'm telling you why the Palestinia= ns may have failed the Arabs.

GHADA K= ARMI

It's about= Arab government performance with the Palestinian cause, and the Palestinian cause isn't just Yasser Arafat and a few corrupt ministers.

TIM SEB= ASTIAN

It isn't.<= /span>

GHADA <= span style=3D'mso-spacerun:yes'> KARMI

It is not,= of course not. It's a world cause. You know very well what it is.

TIM SEB= ASTIAN

Ghada Karm= i, thank you very much indeed. Michael Tarazi, let me ask you to speak against the motion please.

MICHAEL= TARAZI

I have to = admit that when I first heard the motion tonight, I thought to myself, 'Well, how can = you have a debate?' I mean, every= body knows the Palestinians have been failed by the Arab governments, what's any= one going to say?' And then I sta= rted thinking about it and I thought to myself, 'This is actually making me angr= y, because not only is it false, but it actually imposes a double standard on = the Arab governments.' Why does t= his resolution focus on Arab governments? I mean, we all know that it's the international community as a whole that has failed the Palestinians, and yet this resolution focuses on the Ar= ab governments. Why? Because there's an unstated but understood assumption behind the question that all we brown people in the <= st1:place w:st=3D"on">Middle East should have a tribal allegiance to each= other that supersedes the obligations of the international community. That's simply not true. It is not the responsibility of th= e Arab governments alone to enforce international law against Israel.= That is the obligation of practica= lly every member of the United Nations, so why are we focusing on the Arabs? Let's focus a little bit on histor= y. It wasn't the Arabs that gave away= Palestine to the Z= ionists, was it? No, that was Britain, thank you very much, Tim.

TIM SEB= ASTIAN

I'm not a representative of any government.

MICHAEL= TARAZI

It wasn't = the Arabs who helped develop I= srael's nuclear technology. That was France. It's not the Arabs what give Israel = billions of dollars a year to help violate the rights of Palestinians and to build illegal settlements. That's the United States. And here we are blaming the Arabs. Why do we fall into th= is double standard and self-flagellate and say this is all our fault? To vote for this resolution is the equivalent of voting for a resolution that says, Arabs have an obligation to clean up a mess they didn't create, that they didn't want, that they don't = exacerbate and over which they have very little authority. Why would we take on that obligati= on when it's not our fault? The second reason, aside from the double standard = this imposes on the Arab governments, to oppose this resolution is that it's patently false. I'm shocked t= hat there hasn't been a reference from the other side about the military effort= s by the Arab countries. OK, they failed, but they tried, and they tried economically with the oil embargo in= the early 70's. OK, it didn't hav= e the results we wanted but they tried, and they tried again just recently in 2002 with the diplomatic initiative in which the entire Arab League, every Arab government in a rare display of unity said, 'Israel, we will give you peace with all of us if you just abide by international law and get out of the occupied territories,' and Israel said, 'No, thank you very much,' and they invaded Ramallah the next day. The third reason and final reason to oppose this resolution is it's extraordina= rily dangerous because it plays right into the Israeli strategy, of blaming everybody but themselves. I a= gree we should be self-critical, but I'm not going to jump on the self-criticism bandwagon just because Ghada tells me so.&= nbsp; Let's think logically. Don't allow the Israelis to say that even the Arabs in Qatar say that the Arab gover= nments have failed and so therefore Arabs treat Arabs that way, how do you expect = us to treat them any better? Tha= nk you.

TIM SEB= ASTIAN

Michael Ta= razi, thank you very much indeed. You posed the question, why focus on the Arabs? Because the Arabs focu= s on the Palestinians the whole time, they raise it at every possible opportunit= y.

MICHAEL= TARAZI

That's rig= ht. They do.

TIM SEB= ASTIAN

They pledg= e large sums of money and only one of them gives it, Saudi Arabia, so they don't li= ve up to their promises to the Palestinians, do they?

MICHAEL= TARAZI

They raise= the issue, which is a hell of a lot more than the rest of the international community.

TIM SEB= ASTIAN

And they d= on't live up to their pledges, do they?

MICHAEL= TARAZI

And there'= s proof of the fact that they actually do help the Palestinians more than everybody el= se.

TIM SEB= ASTIAN

They don't= live up to their pledges. They don't = help them more. In 2004, the World= Bank Trust gave budget support grants of 118 million, the EU gave 50 million, th= e US 20 million. Only one Arab country lived up to its pledge.

MICHAEL= TARAZI

Tim, you t= hink helping the Palestinians is throwing money at them so they feel more comfortable under occupation?

TIM SEB= ASTIAN

… no= t giving them the money that you pledged them, is that good help?

MICHAEL= TARAZI

My goal as= a Palestinian is not to live comfortably under occupation. My goal is to end that occupation.=

TIM SEB= ASTIAN

Nobody was suggesting, wouldn't you like the money that was pledged?

MICHAEL= TARAZI

How dare y= ou treat me as if I just want money. I want my freedom.

TIM SEB= ASTIAN

Wouldn't y= ou like the money that was pledged?

MICHAEL= TARAZI

Where is t= he contribution for the freedom?

TIM SEB= ASTIAN

Who pays t= he salary of the Palestinian Authority?

MICHAEL= TARAZI

I'm gettin= g paid by the Norwegians.

TIM SEB= ASTIAN

Yes, exact= ly, exactly, that's my point. The reason the Arabs focus on it is because they raise it at every conceivable opportunity.

MICHAEL= TARAZI

You're say= ing that the Arabs have failed the Palestinian people because they don't pay Michael Tarazi's salary. Well, that's great, thank you, Tim.

TIM SEB= ASTIAN

And they d= on't give you the kinds of conditions to work in the other countries, in Lebanon= for instance which Hussein Ibish talked about.= Why not?

MICHAEL= TARAZI

You know w= hat, because that's not my goal. I= was born in Kuwait …

TIM SEB= ASTIAN

And you do= n't care about the conditions of Palestinians in other Arab countries?

MICHAEL= TARAZI

No. I was born in an Arab country and = I'm very grateful to Kuw= ait for giving me an opportunity that no other country did and we didn't know …

TIM SEB= ASTIAN

So I'm all= right, Jack, and I don't care about the refugee camps in Lebanon.

MICHAEL= TARAZI

I'm an exa= mple of the fact that not everyone's in a refugee camp in Lebanon, so why do we focus &= #8230;

TIM SEB= ASTIAN

But what a= bout those who are? No interest to you whatsoever.

MICHAEL= TARAZI

Of course = there's an interest but our goal is not to be integrated into Arab countries. Our goal is to liberate our own co= untry, and with that …

TIM SEB= ASTIAN

… fr= om Arab countries. You don't even mind about the mistreatment from Arab countries.

MICHAEL= TARAZI

We're mist= reated not just in Arab countries. Have = you looked at the United= States after September 11?

TIM SEB= ASTIAN

Yeah but w= e're talking about the Arab countries here.

MICHAEL= TARAZI

Why? That's my whole question, why do y= ou keep focusing on the Arabs?

TIM SEB= ASTIAN

Because th= ey raise the issue of the Palestinians continually.

MICHAEL= TARAZI

Thankfully= , and that's actually evidence …

TIM SEB= ASTIAN

You can't = have it both ways. You're arguing fro= m one side and from the other. You = want your cake and eat it.

MICHAEL= TARAZI

No, of cou= rse I can have it both ways.

TIM SEB= ASTIAN

Michael Ta= razi, thank you very much. Hussein = Ibish, you want to come in here, and then I'm going to take some questions.=

HUSSEIN= IBISH

No, you go= t him in that huge contradiction, but I mean, what I want to point out is that Micha= el's statement actually made our case for us, perfectly, that they fought wars, = they failed but they fought wars, then they put a diplomatic resolution and it failed. You know, it is a kin= d of punctuation in your entire speech that came back to recognising the truth of the proposition on the table, which is that Arab states, have they tried things? Yes. Are we saying th= ey've done nothing at all? No, we're not. What we're saying is, ha= ve they failed? Yes. You said it yourself.

MICHAEL= TARAZI

No.=

HUSSEIN= IBISH

I don't th= ink you listen to yourself carefully enough.

MICHAEL= TARAZI

Unfair. Yo= u are basing the failure on whether or not they were able to produce results, and= I'm basing it on whether or not they tried.&nb= sp; If you're basing failure on actually produce results, then the whole world is guilty.

HUSSEIN= IBISH

No, no, no= . The resolution does not say, 'The = Arab states have tried but failed to help the Palestinians,' or it doesn't say, = 'The Arab states have never done anything to help the Palestinians.'

MICHAEL= TARAZI

It's how y= ou judge fairly.

HUSSEIN= IBISH

The Arab s= tates have failed the Palestinians.

MICHAEL= TARAZI

Great, tha= t was my question to begin with. If th= is isn't failure, what is?

AHMED M= AHER

The motion= says, 'Fail the Palestinians.' It d= id not say that it failed in its effort to help the Palestinians.

HUSSEIN= IBISH

Right.

AHMED M= AHER

In fact wh= at the motion says is that the Arabs did not achieve the results.

HUSSEIN= IBISH

It doesn't= say that.

AHMED M= AHER

And we all= know why they did not achieve the results.

HUSSEIN= IBISH

And it doe= sn't say that either. You were right o= n the first point but you're wrong on the second. It doesn't say, ' … have fai= led to achieve the results.' It says, 'Have failed the Palestinians.

HUSSEIN= IBISH

That's not= what it says. You are re-interpreting= this question.

MICHAEL= TARAZI

This is bl= aming the Arabs. It doesn't mean that i= t’s failed.

HUSSEIN= IBISH

It is not = blaming, it is not.

GHADA K= ARMI

I appeal t= o our chairman, what is this motion about? It appears to be everything that the other side wants it to be about= .

TIM SEB= ASTIAN

That's usu= ally the case I'm afraid, Ghada.

GHADA K= ARMI

It's about= the international community, it's about anything but what the motion is about.<= /span>

HUSSEIN= IBISH

It says wh= at it says, but there's a simple way of judging it. When we look at the present situat= ion, is it a success or is it a failure? If it is a failure then …

MICHAEL= TARAZI

… it= 's the Arabs' fault?

HUSSEIN= IBISH

No, I cert= ainly did not say that.

HUSSEIN= IBISH

The three = provisos said specifically, right, that Arab individuals had tried to help, that the Palestinian leadership had been poor and the international community includ= ing the United States, all had failed, so you're attacking the straw man.

TIM SEB= ASTIAN

I'm going = to bring the audience in here.

TIM SEB= ASTIAN

Gentleman = in the fourth row there.

AUDIENC= E Q (M)

My questio= n is, actually it's a comment, to Mr. Ahmed Maher. Arab regimes have not only failed = the Palestinians, but many Arab regimes have in fact tried to hinder the peace process. Whenever calls for f= reedom are raised in Arab dictatorships or fake democracies, the Palestinian confl= ict is used as a justification for the very existence of those regimes. Whenever someone asks about their rights, they tell them, 'Look what's happening to the Palestinians, you're = way better than them.' These instabilities threaten those regimes. Do you not agree that stability and peace in the Middle East would m= ean that more democrats would rise in the Middle East and threaten dictator and authoritarian regimes in the region?

AHMED M= AHER

I did not = get the question, I didn't hear very well, but what I want to say is that the facts= are that we in Egypt for instance fought three wars for Palestine, '48 because = that was an extremely unjust situation where people living in a country were bei= ng expelled in order to allow for other people to come and take their place. In 1956 we were attacked by Israel in co-operation with the British and the French because we were helping the Palestinians. In 1973 Egypt f= ought a war to liberate all the Arab territories from the Israeli occupation, and= in fact all the efforts of Egypt, the sacrifices that Egypt made for the Palestinians, is not something that we are telling them that we have been v= ery generous, but in fact because our national security is linked to the nation= al security of the Palestinian people, to the liberation of the Palestinian people. In fact you can find = any justification to say that we have not achieved the result that we achieved.=

TIM SEB= ASTIAN

So you tri= ed and failed, this is what you're saying?

AHMED M= AHER

Well, the = motion doesn't say that.

TIM SEB= ASTIAN

No, but I'= m asking what you're saying here.

AHMED M= AHER

No, I am s= aying that we tried but the world failed the Palestinians, failed justice, failed help= ing a people who have been evicted from their country. This is what happened. The United States' position, the British position …

TIM SEB= ASTIAN

Well, we'r= e talking about the Arab governments' position.

TIM SEB= ASTIAN

You've hea= rd the answer with Ahmed Maher.

AUDIENC= E Q (M)

I don't th= ink the real reason why those things happened in the Middle East were to help the Palestinians, but I think it was to further create more instability, because many unpopular regimes, like the one in Egypt, which don't have very strong popular support would like to create instability in the region, to promote their life-style.

AHMED M= AHER

I don't th= ink the Palestinians would agree with whatever you say, because they recognise the importance of the role the Arab countries and Egypt have played, they recog= nise it, and if you do not want to recognise it, if you do not want to recognise= the responsibility of the world community for failing the Arab countries in the= ir efforts, for failing the Palestinian people, for failing justice …

HUSSEIN IBISH <= /p>
We recogni= sed both. We recognised the failu= re of the international community. I certainly did, and no-one has said here that Arabs have done nothing, these= are both strong men. The question= is, are we looking at success or are we looking at failure?

AHMED M= AHER

Well it's = not a very simple question.

HUSSEIN= IBISH

I think th= at's an amazingly cynical way of looking at this.

TIM SEB= ASTIAN

Can we jus= t let Michael Tarazi answer, can we have Michael Tarazi.

MICHAEL= TARAZI

You identi= fy failures in absolute terms because you're eager to blame.

HUSSEIN= IBISH

In absolut= e terms.

MICHAEL= TARAZI

I went to = find failure in terms of relative ability to do something about it. That's how you do it. You succeed or you fail, that's it= , and if it's not this, then you fail.

GHADA K= ARMI

Please, I = want to bring our audience back to what we're actually talking about, what the moti= on is asking of us. I'm sorry, m= aybe that's how my mind works, I'm logical, we follow what we're asked to talk about. We're not talking about everything in the world. Now,= there is no doubt that the international community has a role to play, that the Palestinians have a role to play, that the kitchen sink has a role to play,= but actually …

TIM SEB= ASTIAN

Let's keep= it within the realms of reality.

GHADA K= ARMI

… th= e motion is, well, really we're talking about Arab government performance, given that there are difficulties within a context in which the world is very difficul= t too, and so on, we understand that. Have they done as well as they could in those terms, have they succeeded? Now, actually we're saying we have= to judge by results, not by intention.

TIM SEB= ASTIAN

I don't wa= nt to get into a debate about semantics here.

HUSSEIN= IBISH

Let's retu= rn then, in which case let me suggest looking again at the way Arab states have trea= ted Palestinian refugee populations in their own countries.

MICHAEL= TARAZI

Lebanon.

HUSSEIN= IBISH

Are you go= ing to recite my entire opening speech again?&nbs= p; That's exactly what I said.

TIM SEB= ASTIAN

Can we jus= t listen to what he was going to say.

HUSSEIN= IBISH

That's pre= cisely what I said. I said look at <= st1:country-region w:st=3D"on">Lebanon, and by the way Lebanon has been attacked repeatedly by Israel because of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict spilling over into Lebanon, that is not an excuse for the deplorable, wretched, outrageous, shameful treatment of the Palestinians by the Lebanese government. There is no excuse for it, there i= s no reason for it, and if that isn't failure, I don't know what failure is.

TIM SEB= ASTIAN

All right,= Hussein Ibish, let me take another question, gentleman standing there.

AUDIENC= E Q (M)

My questio= n is for Mr. Hussein. Don't you think while not so strongly supporting the Palestinians,= the Arab governments had not failed the Palestinians, and had they interfered a= nd supported the Palestinians, they would have put more pressure on the Western countries to act in favour of Israel and disintegrating the peace process?

HUSSEIN= IBISH

Yeah, as a= matter of fact, I think there's probably a lot of truth in that, which is why I really don't think either of us have made the case that more failed wars or more w= ars were really the solution. The failure was not a failure in my view primarily to persist in wars, right, t= hat is not the solution to the situation post 1948, and I think we've had to le= arn that the hard way. I think mo= st serious people understand that. The solution is two-fold, first to treat the Palestinians in various Arab states much better than most states have done, Lebanon is, as I said, exhibi= t A, but there are many others. Secondly, and this is more important and this is the substance of wh= at I'm saying, to help the Palestinians develop a pragmatic strategy for natio= nal liberation, one that understands and accepts the basic realities that exist, not exist in a fantasy world where Israel somehow can go away or where Isra= el can be confronted in an armed struggle by lightly armed gangs of Palestinian resistant fighters, but rather to engage the full complexity of what is goi= ng to be required to bring a Palestinian state into existence, a Palestinian s= tate with its capital in East Jerusalem.

TIM SEB= ASTIAN

The gentle= man on the right, I want to get a bit more from the audience and then we'll come back. Gentleman on the right = there, right at the end.

AUDIENC= E Q (M)

My questio= n is for Mr. Tarazi. Why won't rich Ar= ab countries help Palestinians refugees financially, why are they living in su= ch bad conditions?

MICHAEL= TARAZI

They are a= ctually helping them. I mean, the United Arab Emirates I think are spending = $100 million in Gaza to recreate an entire city= , for housing for Palestinian refugees in Gaza, so I don't know what the basis of your question refers to.

HUSSEIN= IBISH

$100 milli= on.

MICHAEL= TARAZI

I think it= 's approx 100 million.

HUSSEIN= IBISH

$100 milli= on.

MICHAEL= TARAZI

Perhaps le= ss, I'm sorry, I mean, I don't know the exact amount. They're spending a lot, they're sp= ending more than a million let's say. I mean, they're spending money.

HUSSEIN= IBISH

Billions, = we need billions.

TIM SEB= ASTIAN

Who's 'we'= , are you Palestinian now or …

HUSSEIN= IBISH

No, I'm sa= ying in order to achieve the result that we all agree on.

MICHAEL= TARAZI

But I don'= t know the basis of your question. They = are actually sending large sums of money.

HUSSEIN= IBISH

What do yo= u want me to do, because I'm not a Palestinian, walk away from this issue?

MICHAEL= TARAZI

No, but yo= u said 'we', I don't know, 'we need billions', who's 'we'?.

HUSSEIN= IBISH

Exactly, w= e need billions, we, the people of goodwill in this world, the intelligent, reason= able people of the world.

AHMED M= AHER

I would ag= ree with Mr. Ibish's description of what the role of the Arab countries should be, helping the Palestinians realise the conditions to create their own state.<= span style=3D'mso-spacerun:yes'> This is exactly what we've been tr= ying to do. That is why it is preposterous to hear somebody say that Egypt is playing the role of policemen to the Israelis, this is absolute nonsense. I mean, what we are trying to do i= s help the Palestinians in Gaza build their authority and re-affirm the authority of the national Palestini= an state.

GHADA K= ARMI

Why is the= Egyptian army policing the Gaza border?

AHMED M= AHER

We are not= playing the role of policeman. This i= s not only outrageous, it is preposterous. It's not true. =

GHADA K= ARMI

But you do= n't police any borders normally.

AHMED M= AHER

We are not= playing the role, we are sitting on the borders between Palestinians and Egyptians,= no Israelis are involved in this thing.

GHADA K= ARMI

Well, why = are you putting your army on the border?

AHMED M= AHER

We have th= e right to defend our borders, I mean, this is very clear.

GHADA K= ARMI

From whom?= From the Palestinians?

AHMED M= AHER

I mean, th= e borders with any country, you defend them.

GHADA K= ARMI

From the Palestinians? Or are you actu= ally there, are you there to actually do Israel's dirty work for them?=

TIM SEB= ASTIAN

The lady i= n the fourth row there please.

AUDIENC= E Q (F)

My questio= n is directed to the people for the motion.&nbs= p; You say that the Arab governments have failed them, but maybe the Palestinians are asking too much of the Arab governments.

TIM SEB= ASTIAN

Ghada Karm= i, would you like to answer this?

GHADA K= ARMI

Yeah. I understand that question, you kn= ow, because I actually referred to it in my statement. Yes, I think it may be asking too = much of them for the reason that I tried to say, which is that the Arab governme= nts are caught in a trap. They de= pend on American favour, I cannot stress this too much, and if they challenge Israel and really fight Israel, which is what we need= . We don't need money, we need someb= ody to fight our enemy, to help us. = They can't fight Israel because they know that they will incur American anger, and they cannot affo= rd to do that.

TIM SEB= ASTIAN

Are you ha= ppy with that answer?

GHADA K= ARMI

So in that= sense, you're right.

TIM SEB= ASTIAN

Are you ha= ppy with that answer? Please stand up.= Are you happy with that answer?

AUDIENC= E Q (F)

But maybe = you're asking the Arab governments to risk too much, to risk relations with other countries maybe for the Palestinians.

HUSSEIN= IBISH

For the Le= banese state to treat the Palestinians living in <= st1:place w:st=3D"on">Lebanon as full human beings = .. that is not asking too much.

GHADA K= ARMI

That's not= the question.

HUSSEIN= IBISH

No, no, it= goes to the question. Are we asking t= oo much, that's the question.

GHADA K= ARMI

She asked = me, are we asking too much? I gave her a= very honest answer, because we on this side are actually speaking very honestly, we're not playing games.

HUSSEIN= IBISH

And let me= say, we're not in full agreement here. I take a slightly different view than Ghada does. I want two things that are not ask= ing too much and that are not going to bring Arab states into conflict with the= United States. One is, treat the Palestinians who= live in your countries decently, that the United States is not going to object to. There would be no problem if Leb= anon stops abusing Palestinians in Lebanon and restricting them and keeping them in these miserable conditions. Number 2, help the Palestinians to develop a plausible, serious, realistic national strategy for liberation th= at involves the full complexity, and move away from this horrible rhetoric abo= ut steadfastness and martyrdom, this nationalistic rubbish.

TIM SEB= ASTIAN

All right,= OK, we've covered that.

AHMED M= AHER

I mean, th= is is past history.

HUSSEIN= IBISH

Oh no, it's not. Don't you read the paper= ?

AHMED M= AHER

I mean, wh= at they should do is to help Palestinians in a negotiating process to regain their rights. What he is talking ab= out is old history.

TIM SEB= ASTIAN

Lady in th= e first row please, can we take your question?&nbs= p; Can we get a microphone to you? Please stand up, will you?
AUDIENC= E Q (F)

Dr. Ibish,= since I am Lebanese and I want to support the Palestinian cause, you mentioned four= or five times about the abusing of the Palestinians in = Lebanon.

HUSSEIN= IBISH

Yes.

AUDIENC= E Q (F)

Yes, it is= a shameful point, but you never mentioned that the Lebanese were supporting the Palestinian cause. No, Lebanon had faith, and I think are still paying for the Palestinians.

HUSSEIN= IBISH

Yes, oh ye= s, I did mention it. Excuse me, I did mention it. I mentioned it in response to the Ambassador. He talked about Egypt, I mentioned '78 and '82 and I would agree with you, the Lebanese have paid a heavy price, more actually. Let me say that the integrity and the future of= the Lebanese state has been called in question on a number of occasions, so the Lebanese have paid a very high price, much more than most of the Arab societies. At the same time, = the treatment of the Palestinians in Lebanon isn't brilliant, both= are true.

TIM SEB= ASTIAN

All right.= Let's have some questions please f= rom this side of the room please. The lady towards the top there. W= hen you get the microphone, if you could stand up please.

AUDIENC= E Q (F)

My questio= n is directed at Mr. Tarazi. He sa= ys that the Arab governments aren't to blame just because they didn't start the damage. Do we think that Arab governments, just by observing, are increasing the damage that is happening= in Palestine, I mean= , just watching Palestinians being slaughtered every day? That is just increasing the damage that's happening in Palestine<= /st1:City>.

MICHAEL= TARAZI

No, I'm no= t saying that they shouldn't do something, but I'm simply saying that they shouldn't= be held to a higher standard than everybody else. I think the greater damage is done= by powers that actually have an ability to do something, like the United States and the European Union that = could withhold aid to Isra= el, they could impose sanctions. = What sanctions are the Arab world going to impose on Israel? They don't have trading with them = to begin with, so I'm not saying they're excused from helping out, but not to impose upon them.

AUDIENC= E Q (F)

But even i= f it's a boycott. Bahrain has just lifted the boycott against Israel.

MICHAEL= TARAZI

But no, the Palestinian Authority doesn't oppose relations with Israel. The Palestinian Authority …<= /span>

HUSSEIN= IBISH

But helpin= g the Palestinians doesn't necessarily mean attacking Israel. Gaza. The Palestinians have just been handed an almost impossible situation. At the same time there's an incred= ible windfall of new revenue in oil exporting states. Where are the billions flowing int= o Gaza? 100 million? I'm sorry, that is really peanuts.= What's required is at least $2-3 b= illion a year, and you know it and it really should not be a problem …

MICHAEL= TARAZI

So they sh= ould be economically dependent on the Arab world? That's right, you're helping the Palestinians.

HUSSEIN= IBISH

You just m= entioned the aid that the West gives to Israel, and I think it is perfectly reasonab= le for a people, by the way a people who've been attacked and traumatised like this and who are in the state the Palestinians are, to expect and receive a= id to develop their society, and if you think that's demeaning, I can't help y= ou, I'm sorry.

MICHAEL= TARAZI

I know, I = know. This is the point.

HUSSEIN= IBISH

It's not d= emeaning.

MICHAEL= TARAZI

I'm not sa= ying that aid doesn't help us, fine. I'm not saying that aid doesn't help us but I'm saying …

HUSSEIN= IBISH

Oh, good.<= /span>

TIM SEB= ASTIAN

All right,= thank you very much. Could we take the question from the lady up there in white.

AUDIENC= E Q (F)

My questio= n is for Mr. Tarazi as well. So you ob= ject to this notion of sort of brown people being held responsible to solidarity, which is why you object to this notion of Arab governments being held responsible? So on what basis= do you think then that nations should be held responsible, is it per capita= or is it by political systems or …

MICHAEL= TARAZI

On the bas= is of being human beings, not on the basis of being a certain tribe.

AUDIENC= E Q (F)

But isn't = that just a little bit idealistic?

MICHAEL= TARAZI

Well, not necessarily.

AUDIENC= E Q (F)

Are we ask= ing that all governments based on the notion of common humanity should come forth and help Palestinians?

MICHAEL= TARAZI

Yes. That's what the universal declarat= ion of human rights is all about, is declaring a common humanity, and that's why we have international laws and treaties that are signed by all governments, regardless of the ethnicity.

AUDIENC= E Q (F)

And so you= would rather see the motion of this house be: 'Have all governments failed= the Palestinians?' is that right?

MICHAEL= TARAZI

That's rig= ht, yes, has the international community failed the Palestinians, that's a very different question. I resent = the idea that we're imposing upon Arabs a greater sentiment.

AUDIENC= E Q (F)

So you don= 't think there's any argument for Arab solidarity.

MICHAEL= TARAZI

I think a = rather strenuous, perhaps even a racist one perhaps.

HUSSEIN= IBISH

But why wo= uld there be a Palestinian identity that would confer upon you particular responsibilities, but not an Arab identity that would confer upon you particular responsibilities. = You're picking and choosing.

MICHAEL= TARAZI

There isn'= t.

HUSSEIN= IBISH

Oh, there = isn't a Palestinian identity.

MICHAEL= TARAZI

I don't kn= ow. I mean we …

HUSSEIN= IBISH

What are y= ou struggling instead for, why don't you just go back to the US?

MICHAEL= TARAZI

That's a n= ationalist identity but it's not based on ethnicity.&= nbsp; As you know, we have Palestinians who are different ethnicities and different religions.

HUSSEIN= IBISH

Right, you= want to pick and choose then. So cert= ain ethnicities, according to you ….

MICHAEL= TARAZI

No.=

HUSSEIN= IBISH

… a Palestinian identity is a real and important thing, but an Arab identity is irrelevant. That's silly.

MICHAEL= TARAZI

Nationalis= m and ethnicity are two different things.

HUSSEIN= IBISH

All these = things have an effect.

TIM SEB= ASTIAN

All right,= we've made the point. Can I move pl= ease to the gentleman sitting in the fifth row there.

AUDIENC= E Q (M)

In 1977, p= eace negotiations were held between Israel and Egypt in the luxur= ious Mena House Hotel in Cairo. Sorry, the question is to the left= of the panel, when a Palestinian delegation was invited to attend to discuss t= he Palestinian situation no-one showed up.&nb= sp; Flags were placed but the offer was snubbed, in my opinion a golden opportunity was squandered. T= he justification for that sort of stance by Yasser Arafat was that President S= adat was betraying the Palestinians by merely sitting at the same table with Isr= aeli officials. I mean, what is yo= ur response to that kind of …

TIM SEB= ASTIAN

Can I ask = Ghada Karmi to take that question?

GHADA K= ARMI

In Camp David.

AUDIENC= E Q (M)

It was a p= retext for the Camp David negotiations.

GHADA K= ARMI

You are ta= lking about Egypt, you want = to bring Egypt in, and Israel. Look, the problem was that Egypt was negotiating a deal with Israel,= in which there was an unequal emphasis on the Palestinian issue. Now the Palestinians had a view th= at they should themselves be able to represent themselves, and that's been a problem all along for the Palestinians, other people always speak for them, they negotiate on their behalf. They're never allowed to actually be fully grown-up adults, and the problem with Egypt representing the Palestinians and everybody else representing the Palestini= ans is the Palestinians never get to put their own point of view in a free cont= ext, not within the limitations set by Sadat or Egypt or whoever it might be.= That was one of the reasons why he didn't attend.

TIM SEB= ASTIAN

Very quick= ly, very quickly please.

HUSSEIN= IBISH

Number 1, = the Israelis were not prepared to talk to the PLO at the time. Number 2, the rest of the Arab reg= ime supported Arafat's decision which I agree was a mistake, but it was heavily supported by the Arab governments generally, so your point goes to our side= .

TIM SEB= ASTIAN

Question t= o this side of the room please. We n= eed to put some pressure on Ahmed Maher who's been silent for a while. Gentleman up there. We'll get a microphone to you, tha= nk you.

AUDIENC= E Q (M)

I do actua= lly have a question for Ghada Karmi. Well actually let's imagine that we are in a perfect world and in this room we h= ave the rulers of the Arab countries, and as you say that the Arab governments, they do not really protect the Palestinian cause, what would you request fr= om them now? What you do suggest? And maybe I have another question. I do know that you support the ide= a that the Palestinians and Israelis can live in one single country. Can you elaborate?

TIM SEB= ASTIAN

What do yo= u want from the Arab regimes?

GHADA K= ARMI

Well, I wa= nt from them something which would be very revolutionary. I want them to recognise that their long-term future lies best in creating a representative government for their own people, in actually being democratic in the true sense, in working with their people rather than against them, and if they were to do that, that wo= uld be the start of the right path towards liberation for themselves and for the Palestinians.

TIM SEB= ASTIAN

Ahmed Mahe= r, would you like to comment on that? The question was, what would the Palestinians = like from Arab governments. Ghada = Karmi says they'd like to have a representative government. Any chance of that in= Egypt?<= /span>

AHMED M= AHER

Of course.= I mean, you have seen the evolutio= n in Egypt, you have seen what happened and you've seen the elections.

TIM SEB= ASTIAN

Selections= .

GHADA K= ARMI

23%.

AHMED M= AHER

No, it's an election.

GHADA K= ARMI

23%.

AHMED M= AHER

But this is irrelevant to what we are talking about.&n= bsp; What we are talking about is a situation where Egypt, under all regimes, has helped the Palestinians people as much as it could, that it has, you mentioned the Camp David negotiations. We did negotiate on behalf, without having been asked by the Palestinians, a very good agreement for the Palestinians which in fact was later accepted by the Palestinians. Egypt has done its role in war, in peace, in helping the Palestinians and I think it is very unfair to come and say, 'Why didn't we help the Palestinians?'

HUSSEIN= IBISH

This is ut= ter nonsense.

TIM SEB= ASTIAN

Mr. Ibish,= do you want to come back on that?

HUSSEIN= IBISH

Three thin= gs, three things that they can do. One,= stop exploiting the issue in a populist and demagogic way. Number two, treat the Palestinians= in your own country better and properly, and number three, give the requisite = aid to President Abbas in the form of billions, not millions.

TIM SEB= ASTIAN

OK, all ri= ght, lady in the front row. There's a microphone coming to you.

AUDIENC= E Q (F)

My questio= n is, Mr Ahmed, after all these agreements and Camp David negotiations, and Egypt ha= s a very long history with Israel, how can you define very clearly your relatio= n, I mean, the Egyptian government's relation with Israel now, and how does this relationship help Palestinians?

AHMED M= AHER

I think our relations with Israe= l are relations that are geared in particular to helping solve the Palestinian problem. There is no country = that has been more involved in attempts to solve the Palestinian problem, and wh= at we are trying to do now is help the Palestinians recuperate their land. It is not by criticising the polic= ies of Egypt that you will ac= hieve what the Palestinians want, because in fact the Palestinian Authority, whic= h is representative of the Palestinian people, appreciates the efforts of Egypt, supports the efforts of Egypt. = And the impediment to an agreement is Israel, so our friends here should address the position of Israel and those who support Israel, not those who are trying to help the Palestinians, have achieved results for the Palestinians, will continue to achieve results for the Palestinians. I am very astonished at a position= taken that pretends not to recognise all the efforts that Egypt has achieved, Arab coun= tries have been exerting. And the real impediment is those who do not recognise t= hese efforts and try to make it appear as if the Arab countries are not trying to help the Palestinian cause. <= /span>

TIM SEB= ASTIAN

Let me jus= t return to the questioner for a moment.

AHMED M= AHER

They are m= ore Palestinians than the Palestinian Authority itself, it's an amazing situati= on.

TIM SEB= ASTIAN

Can I ask = if you were happy with that answer? = Do you accept what Ahmed Maher said?

AUDIENC= E Q (F)

Actually r= eally totally, I agree with you, but I don't think the Egyptian government did the best they could. I mean, they= can do a lot, much better than they did.

MICHAEL= TARAZI

I'm always wondering, we always criticise, but what more do we want the Arabs to do th= at they haven't already done?

T= IM SEBASTIAN

Let her an= swer, please.

AUDIENC= E Q (F)

Actually, = sir, we know that Egypt, you know, and Israel have a lot of, what can I say, you kn= ow, a relation but you know, it's like behind the scenes, like you announce something in the media and you will do another things.

AHMED M= AHER

There are = no relations behind the scene between Egypt and Israel. Our position is very clear, it is = known to the Palestinians, and the Palestinians are very grateful for the efforts that we are exerting.

TIM SEB= ASTIAN

It would b= e one of the few times in history that countries didn't have back-door relations, wouldn't it.

HUSSEIN= IBISH

Yeah, if y= ou don't have behind-the-scene relations, you don't have a diplomatic corps, I mean, you're paying people for doing nothing.

AHMED M= AHER

Excuse me?=

HUSSEIN= IBISH

If you don= 't have back channel diplomacy going on, you don't have very good diplomats.=

TIM SEB= ASTIAN

Ghada Karm= i, you wanted to …

GHADA K= ARMI

Listen, I = can't believe I'm hearing this. This lady's question is excellent. Do you know that before I came here tonight, do you know what's happening in <= st1:place w:st=3D"on">Gaza, have you loo= ked at your televisions? Do you know= how the Israelis are bombing the hell out of Gaza? Why does Egypt maintain relations with= a state that does this to the Palestinians?

AHMED M= AHER

These rela= tions have been helpful to the Palestinians all along.

GHADA K= ARMI

Why don't = you show them …

AHMED MAHER

They allow= ed us t= o play a quanti= tative role.

GHADA KARMI

She asked = you what Egypt c= ould do. One thing it could do is = show that it does not agree with the way Israel behaves at the very le= ast, by breaking off relations. It= 's never dared to do that.

AHMED M= AHER

No, n= o, it's not a question of breaking up relations.

GHADA K= ARMI

It's = never dared to do that.

AHMED M= AHER

These rela= tions have been used to serve the Palestinian cause, and don't be, I mean, demagogic by saying these things. You know= that this relation is helping the Palestinians…

GHADA K= ARMI

Are they t= hough?

AHMED M= AHER

… we= 're trying to promote the cause of the Palestinians …

GHADA K= ARMI

By being f= riends with Israel?

AHMED M= AHER

… an= d it is very easy for you to be here and say these things that are not true.

MICHAEL= TARAZI

I really h= ave to take exception to this idea, because it's a throw-back to the 1960's. You want them to isolate Israel again, that didn't help us, Ghada, = it didn't help us, so let's start thinking in a different way, and secondly the Palestinians have relations with Israel and this is another ty= pical example of how you are blaming Arabs because they're not more pro-Palestini= an than Palestinian official policy itself, and that is ungrateful and wrong.<= /span>

GHADA K= ARMI

Allow me t= o, I need to clear this once and for all, I need to clarity this because you're going= to hear this many times.

TIM SEB= ASTIAN

Last point= on this question.

GHADA K= ARMI

The Palest= inians are obliged to deal with Israel because they are occupied by it.

MICHAEL= TARAZI

No we're n= ot. We can refuse to negotiate.=

GHADA K= ARMI

The others= are not obliged to do this, and Egypt, which is a great country, is not obliged to maintain …

AHMED M= AHER

I say that= Egypt is helping Palestinians much more than what you are saying than anyone else, a= nd this is true.

TIM SEB= ASTIAN

All right,= we're going to move on to the next question.&nbs= p; Gentleman in the front row.

AUDIENC= E Q (M)

Thank you = very much. I think we are missing a point here, that when the Israeli/ Palestinian or Israeli/Arab conflict sta= rted and everybody said that the international community has failed the Palestinians, the international community was looking at Israel as a state = and as an existence, but then the Arab community at that time were not looking = at Israel as in existence, so either take it all or forget it, and now, when e= very country started talking to Israel and started their own diplomatic relation= ship with Israel, the international community is putting a lot of pressure on Is= rael to start negotiating with the Palestinians. So I think the Arab countries have= done a lot of work, but it was done in a completely different format that had failed, because the international community at that time was not with us, i= t was against the Arab community, so I would like to hear Mr. Maher or Mr. Tarazi= on this and then your comments.

TIM SEB= ASTIAN

Ahmed Mahe= r.

AHMED M= AHER

We are usi= ng this relationship to promote the Palestinian cause, and I think Egypt has played= a very positive role, and we see that despite the fact that some people do not want to understand the role that Egypt is playing, we have been very helpfu= l to the Palestinians, to the Palestinian cause, and I think our efforts have not been successful but at least they have been much more successful than the efforts of those who sit there and say, 'What, why are you doing there, thi= s is wrong,' and just pass judgments on things that they do not know of. What Egypt has done and continues = to do with the Palestinians, for the Palestinians, with the Palestinians, is something that is extremely positive in a very difficult situation, and we = know that the Israelis are resisting recognising all the rights of the Palestini= ans, but I think that the role that Egypt has played is and will continue to be a positive role on the side of the Palestinians. It's easy to speak, but doing thin= gs on the terrain is much more important.

TIM SEB= ASTIAN

I think yo= u've said that many times. Lady in the = centre please. Could you stand up pl= ease.

AUDIENC= E Q (F)

All right.= I want to ask, Mr. Michael Tarazi = said that expecting the Arab governments to help Palestinians is like expecting = them to clear up a mess they hadn't started, but then why is it that countries l= ike Kuwait choose to support the US in H= urricane Katrina, a mess they hadn't started, and not help the Palestinians?<= /p>
MICHAEL= TARAZI

No, I agre= e. I'm not saying that they shouldn't= , as human beings, do this. My pro= blem is simply that we shouldn't impose upon these people a greater standard for involvement than we would to non-Arabs as well, because in my view this is a human disaster, not an Arab disaster, and we should all as humans, be conce= rned about this. I'm not saying th= ey shouldn't with Hurricane Katrina.

HUSSEIN= IBISH

Do you thi= nk the mountaineers of Bolivia have the same interest as people from Morocco to Iraq<= /st1:country-region> in the Palestinian situation? I mean, I understand, your argument about the great and the powerful perhaps = is important and I agreed in the beginning that the international community and the United States are certainly, you know, culpable in this situation, but I think it can't be absolutely universal, this is silly. The African peoples felt a particu= lar responsibility to address the apartheid regime in South Africa. In all of these colonial situation= s, peoples whose identity are close to the victims, this comes up. I really don't expect the villager= s of some mountaintop in = Bolivia to have the same attitude on this …

TIM SEB= ASTIAN

Let me tak= e a question from the lady in the second row, please.

AUDIENC= E Q (F)

The saying= goes, 'Keep your friends close but enemies closer.' I don't see how you can find a resolution for the Palestinian people by just cutting all your relations wi= th the Israelis, by boycotting them, you know. First of all if you're just looking= in the Arab world, we don't make half the population. If you're looking in the Muslim wo= rld, that doesn't just incorporate the Arab world. Second of all, you talk about self-criticism. If there's an= ybody in the Arab government that we need to criticise, it's the PLO. Had they been clear and transparen= t like the States, for example, the Arab countries would have donated a lot of mon= ey - that's because there is this transparent system where we can communicate with. The PLO, who do you go = to and where do you go?

GHADA K= ARMI

I keep hea= ring this from various people.

TIM SEB= ASTIAN

So please = answer it.

GHADA K= ARMI

Well, allo= w me to answer it. The PLO and the Palestinian leadership and many things about the Palestinians can be criticised, there is no doubt about it.&nb= sp; Nevertheless we are here to discuss the role of Arab governments, an= d in reality you talk about not isolating Israel. You know, I have to tell you, I di= sagree with you. If the policy had b= een to isolate Israel wholeheartedly and properly from the beginning, and it had continued, it wo= uld have been highly effective. I= think we need to agree that Israel is not the friend of the Arab people, not just the Palestinians, it's not a friend of the Arabs. We need = to understand this. Therefore we have to ac= tually find the best method to deal with it. Now, you may think it's through having relations. I happen to think that if you can isolate it, but isolate it not half-heartedly as the Arabs have done. Arab government boycotts in realit= y, we don't have relations with Israel, but behind the scenes we have all kinds of secret meetings. If you do things properly, then you actually achieve results. How= would it be if the Africans had recognised apartheid as legitimate, apartheid?

TIM SEB= ASTIAN

You don't = look very happy with the reply you've received.

AUDIENC= E Q (F)

How do you= isolate any country in a globalised world, in a globalised economy, how do you do it? I mean, if you have a way, please = tell us.

GHADA K= ARMI

Well, you = know about South Africa, you know= how South Africa, sanctions worked against South Africa. You know how it was isolated, nobo= dy was allowed to deal with, nobody did deal with it, in the end, culturally or in sports, etc. etc. Of course y= ou can do it, of course you can do it, but my point is that it has never been prop= erly attempted by Arab governments because frankly they're too scared to do something effective against Israel.

TIM SEB= ASTIAN

You're not convinced.

AUDIENC= E Q (F)

The aparth= eid was 40 years ago. We live in a compl= etely different economy, a globalised economy.

GHADA K= ARMI

Wait a min= ute, what do you mean 40 years ago. Ten= years ago, South Africa was liberated, not 40 years ago.

MICHAEL= TARAZI

If I can c= omment, I actually agree with Ghada, that total isolation is possible. Look at Iraq, how it was isolated bef= ore the war in terms of economic sanctions and all sorts of other issues. You can take action. My problem with Ghada's argument is simply that if the Palestinians themselves had not called for an isolation = of Israel, why do we continue to blame the Arab governments if they hadn't been more pro-Palestinian than the Palestinians themselves? If the Palestinian Authority said, 'We're demanding a total boycott and isolation,' and the other Arabs said, = 'No, we're not going to help you with that,' then Ghada would have an argument a= nd I'd be on her side. But until= the Palestinian Authority comes out with that …

TIM SEB= ASTIAN

Hussein Ib= ish, one very quick point.

HUSSEIN= IBISH

There was = a time when that was the case, but I come from, coming from a completely point of = view about it, I agree with the presumption of your question. I think I don't blame Arab states = for having pragmatic relations with Israel. I blame them for not encouraging t= he Palestinians to develop their own pragmatic strategies.

TIM SEB= ASTIAN

OK, gentle= man who's been waiting up there a long time, can we get a microphone to him.
AUDIENC= E Q (M)

My questio= n is for Ghada Karmi, so you ask us to isolate, the entire Arab World to re-isolate itself from Israel, and then again isolate itself from the only existing super power in the world. How risky is that for = us?

GHADA K= ARMI

Well, of c= ourse it's risky, of course, of course. = It's too late now, it's too late, and of course my point …

TIM SEB= ASTIAN

Oh, you're= not asking for that now.

GHADA K= ARMI

No, I was = answering her, that actually isolating Israel would have been extremely successful if= it had been done consistently and properly from the beginning, but I actually = take your point, that is one of the things that is very depressing about all thi= s, is that the fact is, you have got this one super power, the fact is that the Arabs made a strategic decision not to challenge either Israel or the super power, to remain, for Arab governments to remain in power by virtue of Amer= ican favour and American support very often, not all of them but very often, they made that decision. As a resu= lt, once you've got that sort of relationship, there is actually, you have no r= oom for manoeuvre. You have to ob= ey orders.

TIM SEB= ASTIAN

All right,= lady in the middle. You've been waiti= ng very patiently.

AUDIENC= E Q (F)

I have a q= uestion for Mr. Maher. You mentioned earlier that you want the Palestinians to stay in Pal= estine instead of going to different countries like Egypt to study or to live there. However, did you not consider that perhaps they were really forced to leave their homes, that, y= ou know, they had nowhere else to go and that by refusing to let them into your country, you're basically hurting them instead of helping, that's another w= ay you failed them?

AHMED M= AHER

I believe = that the Palestinians should be allowed to return to Palestine= , otherwise you are negating the whole problem, you are just striking the who= le problem, Palestinians are to be allowed to live in <= st1:City w:st=3D"on">Palestine.

TIM SEB= ASTIAN

That wasn'= t the question really. That wasn't = her question. The question was re= ally whether they should live decent lives when they're in countries such as you= rs.

AHMED M= AHER

I believe = they live decent lives in a country like Egypt, and you can ask them, I mean, don't ask me, ask them. The Palestinians are living a dece= nt life in Egypt. They're allowed to live with their brothers and we are helping them.

AUDIENC= E Q (F)

However ea= rlier you said that you think that they should be living in Pal= estine, that the Palestinians should remain living in Palestine.

AHMED M= AHER

Well, I be= lieve that if they want to go back to Palestine and t= his is what they want, they should be allowed to go back to = Palestine, but I don't understand the g= ist of your question. I mean, you wa= nt us to allow the Palestinians to live in Egypt<= /st1:country-region> and not to reclaim their own territory, their own land, so that we achieve = the goals of the Israelis to get all the Palestinians out of Israel? This is a very difficult question,= and the choice is the Palestinians' and the Palestinians want to go back to the= ir land.

TIM SEB= ASTIAN

You want t= o come back in.

AUDIENC= E Q (F)

Even if al= l the Palestinians went back to Pale= stine, there's still a war going on, there are still going to be killings. At least the people that can get o= ut or that can go and study or live elsewhere, they should at least have the equal opportunity to, you know, have whatever they need wherever they need it, li= ke Lebanon for example. People i= n, you know, these countries don't have a chance to live normal lives, nor can the= y go back to Palestine and live normal lives, so don't you think the Arab countries owe it to the Palestinians to give them equal opportunities to live?

MICHAEL= TARAZI

Why Arab, = why not anybody else.

HUSSEIN= IBISH

But that's= what they are.

MICHAEL= TARAZI

Why Arab, = why not anybody else. Why does Egypt do something and not the United States or not Norway or not Britain that caused the problem for me.

TIM SEB= ASTIAN

Do you wan= t to answer Dr. Tarazi's point. Do= you want to answer his point?

MICHAEL= TARAZI

I actually= , I agree with you. I think people, ref= ugees, should be taken in but my question is, why do you hold Egypt more accountable for me when Egypt wasn't the cause of this problem?

AUDIENC= E Q (F)

It's just,= I'm just asking the question because he brought it up. However, in the United States you have equal opportunities. How come we don't have …

MICHAEL= TARAZI

Refugees a= re allowed to go to the United = States and get citizenship?

AUDIENC= E Q (F)

No, I think Palestinians.

MICHAEL= TARAZI

When they'= re allowed in.

AUDIENC= E Q (F)

When they'= re allowed in, so it's the responsibility of the whole world. It was directed to Egypt because they brought it= up.

MICHAEL= TARAZI

I agree bu= t it's the responsibility of the world.

TIM SEB= ASTIAN

OK, I'm go= ing to take another question from the gentleman up there who's been waiting a long time. You, sir.

AUDIENC= E Q (M)

My questio= n is directed to Mr. Tarazi. Isn't= the fact that Palestinians have been living in refugee camps for over 50 years = now enough evidence to see that the Arab governments have let down the Palestinians?

MICHAEL= TARAZI

No. First of all, Jordan I think is the only co= untry in the world that has ever taken in such huge numbers of refugees from neighbouring countries and given them equal rights. I don't think you're going to find= any place in the world that opens its doors up to refugees and automatically gr= ants them citizenship. It doesn't = happen anywhere but it did happen in the Arab world with respect to Jordan. I'm not saying that Lebanon and Syria are justified in their treatment but to extrapolate from Lebanon and Syria, and then the say the e= ntire Arab world had failed the Palestinians I think is simply unfair.

GHADA K= ARMI

But Michae= l knows very well what the questioner's talking about. He's saying the Arab states didn't= do anything in all those years to try and get those people, either to treat th= em decently or to allow them to return to their country. They never did either.

MICHAEL= TARAZI

In Jordan = they are not treated decently?

GHADA K= ARMI

I'll tell = you about Jordan,= if you stress me. Jordan took in the Palestinia= ns for a very good reason, and they gave them citizenship for a good reason and it= was nothing to do, or very little to do with being generous and humane. It was to do with building up Jordan, which is a tiny country with a tiny population, and I'm afraid it's cynical= but it's true.

MICHAEL= TARAZI

And where = else in the world have you seen a country like Jordan take in a majority of refugees of the population?

GHADA K= ARMI

Because th= ere's no other country I can think of like Jordan, which had virtually a miniscule population and was desperate to form itself as a state.

MICHAEL= TARAZI

What count= ry has taken in that many refugees, period.

HUSSEIN= IBISH

Look, it's= right, Jordan deserves some praise in this context, Egypt some praise in some oth= er contexts that you mentioned before. No-one is sitting here saying no Arabs …

AHMED M= AHER

And Kuwait.

HUSSEIN= IBISH

The histor= y of Kuwait = on this score is not one to be trumpeting. Well, there was this minor matter of 199= 1/92 so, but let's concentrate on the big picture. The bottom line is, I think there'= s a lot of truth to what the questioner said, and here I think you have to go t= o, and certainly a number of Arab states and a good deal of the Palestinian leadership over the years had preferred for, the public logic being the one= the Foreign Minister here has mentioned, you know, not to keep people in refugee camps, that would be play into the hands of Israel, but I think there was a calculation, that keeping people poor and miserable and angry would somehow= be a good thing for the movement, and I don't think that's been the case, and = if you don't think this was a matter of policy, both Arab and Palestinian, you= are very naïve.

TIM SEB= ASTIAN

Do you wan= t to just answer that quickly.

MICHAEL= TARAZI

You're tak= ing Lebanon and Syria and you're whitewashing= the entire Arab world and you're guilty of the same kind of generalisation that= the Israelis are.

TIM SEB= ASTIAN

OK, all ri= ght, don't let's repeat that. Lady in wh= ite, please.

AUDIENC= E Q (F)

Mr. Michae= l Tarazi, you keep saying that the Arab governments are not the only ones to blame, b= ut the question is whether they are to blame or not.

MICHAEL= TARAZI

Right, and= I agree with you, and so if you take a look at what they were able to do, which was= the second point in my discussion, in terms of military capacity and what they actually tried to do, in terms of economically with the oil embargo, in ter= ms of diplomatically recently in 2002, to say that they haven't done anything = and they have failed the Palestinians, I mean, let's be serious, the Arabs are = not a military super power, so given the limitations that we had to work on, le= t's not pretend we're super heroes, given the limitations that we had, we have = done the best we can.

HUSSEIN= IBISH

Oh, please= .

MICHAEL= TARAZI

And to bla= me them for that I think is very unfair.

HUSSEIN= IBISH

This is the best. But the oil embargo, pe= rfect yes. That's a case in point. = It achieved absolutely nothing except making most ordinary Americans believe t= hat Arabs or Saudis and people in the Gulf were criminals who were picking them off, did zero to help the Palestinians and actually covered up the fact tha= t US oil companies were responsible for raising the price of oil. It was insane.

TIM SEB= ASTIAN

OK. Gentleman in the fifth row up ther= e.

HUSSEIN= IBISH

I mean, if= you want a failure, that's the grandest failure you could ever imagine.

TIM SEB= ASTIAN

Thank you = very much. Gentleman in the fifth = row, you had your hand up sir. Yes.

AUDIENC= E Q (M)

Frankly, I= don't understand why diplomatic inroads are being so neglected. I mean, when we call for isolation= and whatnot, that's a prelude to war. I mean, you cited Iraq b= eing in isolation, but you see what's happened there, and then you expect to iso= late Israel, a nuclear power, and hope that it just reacts well. I don't see how that, in the entir= e Arab world, only two countries, Jordan and Egypt, making dipl= omatic gestures towards Israel, both heavily dependant on US foreign aid, can be cited as credible examples when the rest of the Arab wo= rld should follow suit.

GHADA K= ARMI

Look, it's= too late, I said it's too late actually now to isolate it, it's too late, the opportu= nity was missed, but if you break off relations or if you withdraw your ambassad= ors it actually sends a signal. It sends a signal to the Palestinians who are dying under Israeli bombs that a= ctually somebody cares about them.

TIM SEB= ASTIAN

You're say= ing it's too late but you still want a signal sent.=

GHADA K= ARMI

No, no, no= .

TIM SEB= ASTIAN

Which is i= t?

GHADA K= ARMI

I'm talkin= g about an isolation of Israel, but two issues you talked about, isolating Israel and = the other was cutting off relations nor withdrawing all, cutting off diplomatic relations, it actually does sent a signal which I think is quite important.=

HUSSEIN= IBISH

It is much= better to empower the Palestinians who have an elected leadership that for the first = time in a long time it's pursuing a plausible diplomatic strategy. They need aid in the form of billi= ons and the present-day scandal, the scandal of de jour, the scandal of = the moment, is that billions are not flowing into Gaza right now to support President Abb= as and he needs the support and that is what is necessary.

TIM SEB= ASTIAN

We have ti= me for one quick section to this side of the room please. Hand went up at the back, you sir.= Very quickly. We'll get a microphone to you.

AUDIENC= E Q (M)

My questio= n is directed at Mr. Tarazi. You've mentioned numerous times that the Americans and the Israelis are allies, and there's no country in the EU that wants to be in a position where they're opposing the US, so who is it that the Palestinians can depend on other than the Arab world?= Who can the Palestinians turn to other than the Arabs, their neighbours.=

MICHAEL= TARAZI

I actually= didn't say that.

AUDIENC= E Q (M)

You said t= hat the Americans and the Israelis are allies.

MICHAEL= TARAZI

Yes, Ameri= cans and Israelis …

TIM SEB= ASTIAN

So he's as= king if the Palestinians can't turn to Arab countries, who can they turn to.=

MICHAEL= TARAZI

I think th= ey should be turning to everybody. They should be able to turn to Arab countries but not hold them to a higher standard, that's my only point. I'm not saying Arabs are absolved of any responsibility, but I as a Palestinian would focus my efforts on the very people that could actually make a differ= ence with respect to Isra= el. The EU is the largest trading partner with = Israel. If they just bothered to enforce t= heir own free trade agreement with respect to the settlement products, that we h= ave an economic impact along the lines that Ghada's talking about and shouldn't require a whole lot of initiative on behalf of the EU.

HUSSEIN= IBISH

The States= are not powerless.

AUDIENC= E Q (M)

You don't = think that the United States would respond to that by for example cutting off communication?

MICHAEL= TARAZI

Well, that= 's right and that's what Ghada is saying with respect to the Arabs as well, they sho= uld be doing it to everybody, so our real goal should be addressed towards the = United States. We should be focusing on the US rather than on blaming the Arabs for it.

HUSSEIN= IBISH

Again you = want to change the question. I don't = blame you.

TIM SEB= ASTIAN

All right,= listen, I think we've run out of time on the questions, and we come to that point in = the proceedings where we're going to vote on the motion that 'This House believ= es that Arab governments have failed the Palestinians.' Would you please take your voting devices, you press 1 if you are for the motion, you press 2 if you are agai= nst and would you please do that now. You only need to press once, you don't continually need to press, ju= st once and we'll get the results very quickly.

= ;

The vote i= s coming up now. You will see it any m= oment now, and it looks as if the motion has been carried resoundedly: 72.3 for t= he motion and 27.7 against. It's= been carried decisively. Thank you= very much.

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